Wednesday, December 11, 2013

Thiel CS 3.5 vs B&W 801 series 3

In 1992 I picked up used a pair of Thiel CS 3.5's used from Audio Visions in Tampa.

The store had a new pair going for $3500 and these were on consignment for $1500.  After a quick in-store audition I brought them home and have enjoyed them ever since.  While at the time they were Jim Thiel's flagship product, needless to say time and progress marches on.
B&W 801 Series 3

Fast forward 21 years.  I recently acquired a used pair of B&W 801 series 3's from a local dealer for $1800.  I had had a chance to hear a new pair back in the late 90's and had been very impressed.

The 801's were delivered to my home.  I hooked them up to my Pass Aleph 1.2 monoblocks with the Pass Aleph P preamp.  These amps have lots of current and run in pure class A.

But, one of the speakers was missing nearly all the output from the mid/tweeter.  I called the seller and he said he would stop by the next day and check them out, and send them to a well respected shop in Tampa.  No worries.

So that night we put on some music with one-and-a-half working B&W 801 speakers.   The good one was pulled out well into the room and to the side, not the usual place. By chance, we were sitting with it pointing straight at us about 6 feet away.

Even in nearly mono I had never heard my collection sound anything like this! It sounded live and with a harmonic rightness, musicality and detail that was amazing.  It was just before Christmas, and even 60's ear holiday music sounded like a live performance.  Brenda Lee was standing right in front of us, or maybe we were right in front of a loudspeaker in a live performance.  The drums that had just sounded like a distant after thought were now a small vintage kit sitting on stage to her left as she rocked around the Christmas tree. (The other speaker was still partly working).

Song after song, genre after genre it was the same with a few exceptions.  Poorly produced tracks showed their flaws.

But surprisingly all live recordings sounded amazing, even ones I had made decades earlier on a portable stereo cassette recorder (with the worst possible Radio Shack tape--hey, I was running out the door and grabbed it out of a box).  Yes, there was hiss on that 1976 recording.  But listening past it it brought out amazing detail, musical soul, and dynamic even on that lowly recording.

Great Expectations.  If "one-and-a-half" speakers could do this, we couldn't wait to hear it with two fully functions B&W 801's.  The repair was just a few caps gone bad in the cross over.  So, I hooked up both fully functioning 801s and positioned them.   

Dashed!  There was a huge center suck out!  Vocals that had been very strong and even up front in the mix were nearly missing from the mix altogether!  I checked the wiring for phase.  Nope.  All good.

Carly Simon was now just a tiny voice vainly singing "You're so vain," between two giant sidewalls of sound.  Song after song it was the same.

I felt sick.  What happened?

I don't mean the singer recessed back into the sound stage. I mean it was almost as if someone ran one of those "vocal eliminator" filters on track after track.

Subconsciously, I found myself wanting to sit in front of one or the other of the 801 directly. When I did, the vocalist returned.

Move to the side and, bang!  They were back.  It was late so I quit listening and called it a day. 

The next day when my wife listened she immediately said, "These don't sound as good.  It doesn't sound like the singer is....It all just sounds like it's in a straight, flat line from speaker to speaker." My wife never says things like that.

I was sunk.  Again, I left it for the next day.

Day 6:  I had a vacation day, so I re-hooked up the old Thiels and their stock external equalizer.  Immediately one thing was obvious. The Thiels totally, absolutely disappeared from the room.

With the 801's the speakers refused to disappear.  Something always called slight attention to the cabinets themselves and not the sound stage.  Maybe just a hint of ring or something.  With the Thiels the speakers always disappeared and the sound stage was like a physical, unshakeable source of the sounds instead.  In fact, even if I focused on the Thiels my brain refused to perceive any sound coming from them. 

The Thiels had their limits:  I did notice that compared to the 801's the sound was a bit smeared. Not bad, just not as detailed or high def. in many cases.  Yet the slight smearing of detail did not affect the imaging.  Also,  they could not handle the same sound levels as the 801s without a lot of strain  Nor did they have the huge dynamic range and bass slam or authority.  And they did not portray the detail of the 801's, or have quite the sense of realism with instruments.

But my errant 801's were putting everything in one of three places:  center, far left, or far right.  And a horn might meander to the side as it went up the scale.

Even my lowly B&W DM220's in my studio never did that.

And the center suck out?  Were my tweeters on the 801's hooked up out of phase? 

Later that day I lugged the 801's back and reconnected them.  This time they were about a foot closer together and about a 6" further back, only about 20" in front of the wall, but further from the sidewalls.  I was about to run some test tones and check out the tweeters.  But before I could do so I replayed the track mentioned above and, surprise, Carly was back!  The center suck out was completely gone.  What happened?

A small shift in positioning and the 801's were a totally different set of speakers!

Turns out room nodes and anti-nodes were the culprit.  Test tones indicated that the mid driver in the left repaired unit was about 3bd louder than it's mate in the right. But all were functioning properly and in phase.   (It also indicated that the right mid driver on the Thiel was dead!  The first order cross over had totally masked it.  This will be the second repair/replacement of that driver.  It's amazing the Thiels still sound so good missing one mid-range!)

Ironically the 801's better high frequency dispersion probably created this issue.  Even the image shift to the sides were reduced to almost nil.  That means it was room boundary reflections that was the problem.  Apparently certain high frequencies were beaning off the side walls to my listening position, causing this shift and the suck out!

I've never seen that effect so strong in any speaker before.  Moving to a new house a year later I had no problem at all placing the 801's.  The side walls were further away.

Second Chance for the 801's.  Inspired that the center was now right I listened to several tracks. I noticed that the 3D sound stage had also emerged.  Not quite Thiel level, but definitely there now.  And less attention to the speakers.  In fact, I now felt no urge at all to sit in front of the 801 cabinets. 

Day 9:  With further listening to the 801's I believe that their very strength, which is wider dispersion of high frequencies, is also a potential stumbling point in set up.  Stay well away from side walls!

(--Update:  3 years later, in a different house, and now with a BenchMark DAC2 this is still the case.  The B&W 801/III really like to be set up just right, and far away from side walls.)

Overall impressions of the 801/III?  No going back!
I lamented the flaws revealed in a few tracks.  But nearly all other tracks have revealed layers of musical beauty not there before through the CS 3.5's.  Most notable is the stereo version of the Beach Boys Good Vibrations.  I downloaded this for the occasion as it was the first track I had heard on an identical pair of 801's at the stereo shop back in the late 90's.  I couldn't believe the bass slam, intricacy and detail on that old recording.  On my Thiels Good Vibrations sounds almost like fat mono.  No color, no life, way too laid back.  But through the 801's and it's like stepping from Kansas into Oz.  You can't believe it's the same track.

Bottom line: my audio engineer son is getting a pair of Thiels for Christmas.  (Do I tell him the mid-range is blown?)

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